Sunday, October 16, 2016

Guildleader Chores - The Spirit Cauldron Debate

Cauldrons are back! We haven't had cauldrons since Lich King!

These Spirit Cauldrons require 4 of each kind of flask - agility, strength, intellect and stamina - and a Blood of Sargeras. The Cauldron then churns out 30 spirit flasks which will turn into whatever stat flask you need.

Expensive to make compare to the WotLK ones! But still, there is some benefit to it.

Getting the flasks for a cauldron can be quite pricey - if we bought flasks from the AH they are 1800-2200g for one flask! So to create a spirit cauldron from the AH it would cost at lesat 36000 gold. The thought boggles!

So we decided that it would be in the best interest of the raid to create a cauldron for raiding. Every member of the heroic raid has to come flasked anyway, so instead of them drinking that flask, they can put that towards the cauldron, and then they can take one out of the cauldron, which will be cost neutral. However, in a mythic raid (using mythic as an example because it's a nice set number of 20) 10 people can double dip and get 2 flasks. That's 2 flasks for the price of one. Sounds like a no brainer right? Just taking one flask per raid?

Of course, there are 10 people who will miss out. However, the alchemists get 2 hours out of one flask so they don't need a second flask, so they are the true cost neutrals in the raid, donating one flask and getting one back. So we can take them out of the people needing to double dip. That would still leave 4-5 people who need to take a second flask. But, you could take turns rotating that, so that on one raid night 5 people need 2 flasks for a 2 hour raid (which is what they would normally do anyway without a cauldron), and on the next night they can take 2 flasks from the cauldron.

It seems like such an easy idea, which would save people mats in the long run. In addition, the cauldron can also proc when it's crafted, so sometimes making one cauldron you can proc another 5 cauldrons! Which would save even MORE in gold and mats! However, you have to have 3 stars in the recipe for the cauldron to get that to occur.

So we thought we'd introduce it for raids, as it seemed like a good idea, saving mats and then people would only have to bring one flask per raid. However, we did not expect to have so much opposition!

A few guildies have expressed their concerns with this, mainly to do with controlling their own consumables. I thought that saving money or saving their proper flasks for doing mythic plus or other things would be more valuable to them, but they preferred using their own flasks rather than contributing towards the guild cauldron. However, it was very confusing to me, as I felt like if they contributed the flask they were going to take for the first hour of raid, they'd end up with 2 flasks that they could use for the whole raid, thereby saving one flask for dungeons.

I asked some friends of mine who were GMs of guilds with similar progress and 2 of them didn't know what a spirit cauldron was, and one said that the guild bank couldn't afford it. Only one of my mates used a cauldron and they made their guildies contribute 6 flasks for the week for the cauldron. Wow. We only ask for 3! Or really, however many heroic/mythic raids you will attend. However, we do have shorter raids.

We'll give people a few weeks to get used to the idea, and kick it in from Blizzcon. In the meantime I'm recording all contributions publicly so everyone can see who is contributing what. There was some concern that it's a lot of work - but hey, I'm the one doing the work, it's no harder than EPGP!


  1. If it's the same raiders contributing as getting out (ie, no-one loses out), and they use flasks anyway (which of course they should), then I really don't understand what the objection is? Have you asked? The only reasons I can think why people would object is either (a) they don't use flasks and were hoping no-one would notice or (b) they think they're going to get less out than the put in (for example they donated more flasks than they would normally use).

    I'm impressed actually that you've thought it through so well.

    Our raids are usually 20-30 in size so not quite such a big benefit, but having said that, it's 30 flasks for the price of 16 (plus the blood of course). I'll have to consider something similar myself ;-)

    1. Personally. I'm on the fence (leaning towards not liking it) about the Spirit Cauldron debate.

      As a raid-wide contribution, I know and can appreciate that it is far more efficient as it turns 20 (not 16) Flasks into an effective 30. I'm fully aware that over time this will result in hundreds of thousands of gold saved raid-wide.

      I only have one minor qualm (that I could subsequently write an entire novel about, it seems. With repeated use of the word "responsibility") with this method though: and that's purely how it alters raid responsibility.

      In the past two expansions (MoP and WoD), each of your raid members have been expected to have flask and food for themselves to use during the raid. In this case, that responsibility is purely personal. If one person fails to provide consumables for themselves on the day of raid, then only that person suffers (as everyone else would then have flasks/food), which is in my opinion easier to manage. Under this new system, while the responsibility to bring a rostered flask is still personal, it's now affected by the entire raid's ability to do so. Excluding back-up cauldrons, if people were to fail to bring their flask, the entire raid would now be affected as opposed to the previous situation where only that person would be affected.

      Truthfully, having my ability to flask gated behind a raid-wide responsibility makes me feel a little uneasy. While this may be hard to explain, I take pride for my performance during raids and a part of that is making sure I am completely prepared before raid and not when the raid-contributed spirit cauldron goes down. While this may seem redundant in a sense as the flask I would contribute would be the one I would use anyway. I feel the atmosphere of the responsibility changes as a previously personal responsibility is now a raid-wide one.

      But that's just my two cents, and realistically, I know whether or not I feel uneasy about it doesn't matter. Since in the grand scheme of things, non-compliance to this system has been broadly stated to result in being removed from raids.

      TL:DR, I feel flasking should be a singular personal responsibility, not a 20-man + personal responsibility on getting a cauldron formed.


    2. New TL:DR, since I'm an idiot and didn't proof my old one...

      Whether or not a person has a flask to use should be a personal responsibility, not one that relies on 20+ people complying by the spirit cauldron system.

    3. Hey Sprowt :)
      Yeah we asked, and it was more people seemed to enjoy being responsible for their own consumables. To them the cost savings didn't seem to matter, I think the loss of control was the problem for them. Another guildie suggested that it might because of the "what's in it for me?" because if people could not see a benefit for themselves, then they were disinclined to participate.
      I think it felt disappointing that it looked like there were people who did not want to help out the guild, and were in it for themselves. That probably wasn't the case, but to the new members of the guild who were part of the raid, that is what it looked like.

    4. Hey Splatz,
      The officers hoped to make the burden easier by the benefits all going to everyone else and the officers have to wear the extra costs (as in they are the ones putting one flask in and then having to take their own flask for the second hour). I think also people are concerned that this allows people to be "irresponsible" with their flasks. We do monitor food and flask buffs and if people continuously are not flasked or fed then we initially remind them in raid and repeated behaviour we talk to them behind the scenes to ensure they are complying with the raid requirements or they will sit out of raid. Those have worked well and we have full compliance with everyone being flasked and fed.

  2. I love the idea of cauldrons but not the materials. Can you imagine if you brought 4 cans of Diet Coke, 4 cans of 7-Up, 4 cans of orange soda, and 4 cans of Dr. Pepper and mixed them together? Drinking such a monstrosity would not give you a stat bonus!

    I would prefer if raid members contributed the raw herbs, vendor purchased ingredients, and maybe an Order Hall mission-acquired rare ingredient (admittedly, I suppose I at least partially resent the insane profitability of alchemy over other tradeskills!). That, to me, makes more sense than the current "suicide soda" model. :)

    1. We do also have the option of donating the herbs for the flasks - people have done that also! I am also more keen on that idea since I have herbs floating around. But you're right the monstrosity of all those drinks mixed together sounds revolting and would probably reduce my stats LOL


I hope these comments work! Not sure why people can't comment lately, it makes me sad :(