tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post25580978978375170..comments2024-02-25T11:19:44.035+11:00Comments on The Daily Frostwolf - Druid Edition: Now that the dust has settled - My thoughts (and a collection of everyone else's) on females in WoDUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-76441551155766719062013-11-23T13:42:16.548+11:002013-11-23T13:42:16.548+11:00Hi Aka! No I'm not trying to paint her negati...Hi Aka! No I'm not trying to paint her negatively, I admire her because she is forthright and out there, which is brave and very different to me, and I when I read her post, it just had a different tone to the ACM that I am used to. I often read her writing because of the passion and feeling behind her arguments - as I said, this post was really interesting because it was different to her norm. BBB's post was very emotional - I tried to take out all the emotional parts of everyone's post and focus on the good things that they said so as not to aggravate. However, the links are clickable if there is more that anyone wanted to read.<br /><br />I know your feelings on feminism Aka - they align with Dahakha's - so I am totally nonplussed by you expressing your feelings here, and it doesn't change my opinion of you or anyone as long as they're not flinging abuse at me or calling me names. I respect all opinions, you should know that! It is only because my opinion does not fully align with yours+Dah+ACM+Liss+Anne+Hestiah and I don't want people who also do not feel as you do to feel like they are alone and frightened to talk because we will get bullied and harrassed by others whose opinions differ to our own. It doesn't mean I align with BBB, but like ACM (though poles apart), he often has very strong feelings and he writes eloquently when angry, which is what often gets him in trouble but once he calms down he is often apologetic. I have great admiration for the man for he has defended me in the past with Bear passion, something for which I will always remember with humility.Navimiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504557372435466448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-80939797657243704572013-11-23T13:11:03.510+11:002013-11-23T13:11:03.510+11:00Also I hope you know that I really don't want ...Also I hope you know that I really don't want this to come across as attacking you personally >< Just, as someone who is frequently told to "calm down" or "not get so worked up" when I talk about stuff that annoys me, even when I'm really not angry, I get defensive when I see others called out on the tone of their comments ^^;;;redcowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15710056327957225884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-50205874166847474882013-11-23T12:44:38.022+11:002013-11-23T12:44:38.022+11:00I really want to comment on your description of Ap...I really want to comment on your description of Apple Cider's post. It's clear that you read her tweets and her blog, but here you're painting her in a strangely negative light, even though you may not have intended it that way. All of the other bloggers you mentioned get simple descriptions of their post and their writing, which makes ACM's description sound like she's often belligerent or unpleasant but has managed to produce something rational this once. Also, your praising her post as being "level-headed and calm," calling attention to the tone rather than the content, makes it seem like someone who writes something that includes their emotional response isn't worth listening to, or doesn't have valid ideas. Which is weird, since you both link to and laud BBB's reaction post, which was extremely emotional! If you promote his angry writing while simultaneously criticizing ACM's, it makes it seem like you just don't want to come out and say "I disagree with ACM's point of view" so you're resorting to negating her ideas based on how they are presented. You usually seem pretty receptive to feminist takes on WoW, even if you don't always agree, but I really don't know why only ACM got such a strange intro here.redcowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15710056327957225884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-25232714215461123202013-11-23T05:54:15.738+11:002013-11-23T05:54:15.738+11:00Yeah the only way you are going to convince someon...Yeah the only way you are going to convince someone to change their mind is to give them the best argument you have, supported by the best evidence you have, and hope that they accept what you say. But as you say, sometimes people's beliefs and opinions will never change no matter how much reason is given to them. <br /><br />I definitely think one of the greatest dangers to the cause of feminism is the tactic of shaming, bullying, harassment and intimidation of those you want to convert or get support from - especially other women. I mean, if you are trying to claim that women should be feminists in order to alleviate the oppression of the patriarchal society we live in, yet you engage in that very same oppression from a different source, how are you going to convince anyone to agree with you?Dahakhanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-33618660015046097572013-11-23T02:06:23.120+11:002013-11-23T02:06:23.120+11:00I know you feel strongly on the subject and, like ...I know you feel strongly on the subject and, like Matty, I think we are good enough friends to be able to discuss and share our differences and still be friends. With others, I am not so sure, but the one thing that I do feel strongly about is that nobody should be bullied or harrassed because of their opinion. I think education and making the views known are good ways to promote an ideal that has not caught on, but sometimes you cannot change someone's mind no matter how much you browbeat them. And it doesn't matter if your opinion is the right one, but hurling abuse only breeds more abuse.Navimiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504557372435466448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-88052047115374623312013-11-22T01:14:14.412+11:002013-11-22T01:14:14.412+11:00I know you don't like conflict on your blog, N...I know you don't like conflict on your blog, Navi, and everything I want to say would take up several blog posts of my own anyway, so I am not going to go into details here about everything I find problematic with what has been said here. I will limit myself to a couple of points.<br /><br />I agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, there are three categories of opinions when it comes to this topic, and they are:<br /><br />a) Yes, this is a problem and I am upset/disgusted/disappointed about it.<br /><br />b) Yes, this is a problem but I am unaffected by it/am not upset about it.<br /><br />c) There is not a problem/You are overreacting/Get over it/any other form of silencing.<br /><br />I can respect A and B, but there is no way your opinion is worthy of respect if it is C. Not every opinion should be respected. And a lot of the time, some C's attempt to disguise themselves as B's, as demonstrated by your quote of Vixsin - which is either a blatant silencing tactic (Vixsin's, I mean), or she misses the point by so wide a margin that it is pretty hard to take her argument seriously. Amijade's comment above has a similar feel - claiming to belong to the B camp but downright mocking the A's through facetiousness.<br /><br />Fyrelore mentioned "seeing both sides of the argument". I am not sure what they meant by sides, but I am hoping that they meant the difference between the A's and the B's. I really can't see how the C's have a side, unless you mean you are framing the sides as "you see the problem with this" (the A's and B's) and "you are part of the problem" (the C's).<br /><br />I am likely going to write a few posts about all the issues I am seeing come up in your post and comments, plus others that have appeared on some of the other blogs I've read. The first one will be about Zuulzilla's quoted text, the reasons why it is dangerous to think that 'feminist' and 'equalist' are interchangable, or that 'equalist' is somehow better. I'm not sure how I will publish these posts, I might need to start my own blog! If you are interested, I will let you know when they are ready.Dahakhanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-57811786927428562722013-11-21T18:15:12.903+11:002013-11-21T18:15:12.903+11:00It was a good post Xsinthis :)It was a good post Xsinthis :)Navimiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504557372435466448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-44887490025972174032013-11-21T16:37:27.374+11:002013-11-21T16:37:27.374+11:00I always get so excited when someone mentions one ...I always get so excited when someone mentions one of my posts, glad you liked it :3 <3Xsinthishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07108035272127828210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-31914008533731348222013-11-21T11:58:34.170+11:002013-11-21T11:58:34.170+11:00Thanks Amijade! I hadn't even thought what wo...Thanks Amijade! I hadn't even thought what would be the implication of all the Forsaken! Now my mind is boggled! OH MY GOSH it means you will all be humans and alliance!Navimiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504557372435466448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-79645676542398396162013-11-21T10:24:20.874+11:002013-11-21T10:24:20.874+11:00I didn't see that post on your blog - I actual...I didn't see that post on your blog - I actually went to your blog looking for your views on the whole thing but you have 5 posts a day sometimes - I think I missed it. I will reblog it now!Navimiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504557372435466448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-89342984553062435602013-11-21T08:03:34.354+11:002013-11-21T08:03:34.354+11:00Great post Navie, I loved all the quotes you put t...Great post Navie, I loved all the quotes you put together and I'm sure it took a lot of work and thoughtful planning in presenting everyone's viewpoint in a fair manner. I'm upset because what about Murlocs? I don't think they get enough storyline devoted to them. We slaughter them by the hundreds through all of the different quests that involved them, but they really don't have a strong story. And I have some issues with warlocks being represented as always being evil too. Not all warlocks are completely evil and I think it's unfair we're pigeon holed into that role. Heck, with WoD we're going back in time before the LK takes command so what will happen to the storyline of my beloved Undead faction? Am I suppose to put off my suspension of disbelief to think that my female Undead character is alive again?And if that's the case should I switch my faction to Alliance since everyone knows that the Undead faction is aligned towards the Horde? It's all madness I tell you!<br /><br />Like you I view a good story as a good story. I don't think in terms of seeing any story, game, or movie as compartmentalized gender representation. I see people for what they are....people. Amijadehttp://warlockery.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-27050603989213286092013-11-21T01:38:16.849+11:002013-11-21T01:38:16.849+11:00Navi, not sure you saw this, but Tome and I like i...Navi, not sure you saw this, but Tome and I like it: http://wowsugar.blogspot.com/2013/11/bravery.html<br />The thing is, the conversation isn't really about boy v girl, or a score card of biology, but a mindfulness of how we, all humans, get to be represented and considered. That's all. I remember a few years ago when I think it was Metzen said "this isn't world of dresscraft," and yet look how many people love mogging of all genders. I am not sure he always knows his audience; I believe both men and women want a fun game to play and pretend they are heroes and villains. Cool thing is, for the most part, that's what we get. Mattyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05504775167541916213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-25621830809007599752013-11-20T10:24:02.808+11:002013-11-20T10:24:02.808+11:00I'm with you Shawndra, a good story is not abo...I'm with you Shawndra, a good story is not about whether it's female or not but about the characters. But I do respect that some people feel like they would like some more representation of the sexes - just like people want more represenation of races and religions. If the whole story was about females I wouldn't even notice anyway! As long as the stories were good, right?Navimiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504557372435466448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-8051369340139725602013-11-20T10:21:37.166+11:002013-11-20T10:21:37.166+11:00I think Blizz will listen, because they do say the...I think Blizz will listen, because they do say they get feedback from the community and love to engage with the community. At least they are given the opportunity now to fix it - it's not like they defined early that there ARE NO females or something like that. Thank you for visiting Fyrelore!Navimiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504557372435466448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-30023909740613803342013-11-20T10:21:09.026+11:002013-11-20T10:21:09.026+11:00I have never picked up a book and looked to see if...I have never picked up a book and looked to see if the main protagonist was female. I pick up a book and read the summary, try to read the prologue, and I might even look to see if it is part of a series. I'm thrilled to be able to "live" in someone else's story, and I look forward to the next "chapter". ShawndraKaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08054322959730947044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-1681081015965982192013-11-20T10:20:16.732+11:002013-11-20T10:20:16.732+11:00I am glad that the blog posts were not all crazy s...I am glad that the blog posts were not all crazy screaming rants but actually good reads with suggested solutions. That always makes a more compelling argument and as you said PlaidElf, constructive.Navimiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504557372435466448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-11013125696376963972013-11-20T08:48:13.280+11:002013-11-20T08:48:13.280+11:00I'm pretty much the same way, too. I was super...I'm pretty much the same way, too. I was super excited for days when I heard about this xpac. It was surprising seeing the rants and raves about the lack of strong female characters in this xpac and, to be honest, it's still hard to decide whether character gender truly matters to me. I liked seeing both sides of the argument though, and I can definitely see why or why not female characters matter to different people. Blizzard does tend to be good at paying attention to their players, especially in cases like this, so I guess we just have to wait and see.Jeephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342662290127910754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139205590317840868.post-35485781107998489722013-11-20T08:02:56.521+11:002013-11-20T08:02:56.521+11:00I have similar feelings on this subject. I'm n...I have similar feelings on this subject. I'm not really upset at all about it, but I REALLY hope we'll be see a lot of Draka because I'm very intrigued by her. A lot of those blog posts were amazingly well-put, logical, calm, eloquent. Even the things I don't feel about it myself were expressed so well that I could easily see the viewpoints. I like that. And I think that that is one of the great things about WoW's community of bloggers. There's been a discussion about this and as far as I can tell for the most part it has been very civil and constructive.PlaidElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15322405383723446243noreply@blogger.com